Author Topic: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions  (Read 247 times)

Offline cmstewart21

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Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« on: October 22, 2017, 07:15:01 AM »
Hi guys, I recently felt something fishy about a live show I received from someone in FLAC format. I'm no expert, and am still learning about the exact differences between lossless and lossy (I mean, within the audio data, what is changed from one to the other) and I decided to get Lossless Audio Checker to verify if it was truly lossless.


I ran a couple tracks from it --- and it said it was "upsampled". I went ahead and did this to about 50 other folders of music I have, and 8 of them said the same thing. Most said "clean". One said "transcoded", but I already knew that one was lossy (the Hultsfred festival show). Anyway, what exactly does Upsampled mean? Does this mean it's just lossy, and I should abandon and replace it with a better copy? I was really surprised that the Telluride Bluegrass show from 07 came back as Upsampled. I downloaded it from here years ago and always believed it to be one of my first 'lossless' quality shows. So I'm really confused about what it means, or if I trust it.


Let me know if you have some thoughts or advice. Thanks!
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Offline dutchieblue

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2017, 10:34:57 AM »
I'm no expert so i hope someone with more expertise can help you out.
Just a few things( i think) i know,when something is in Flac it doesn't always mean it's lossless.Some people including myself prefer to share lossy shows in Flac too so the quality will remain better than sharing it in MP3 but it's really important to add that it's still a lossy show.
As far as i know every torrent here was checked either by Simon or Raisemyglass to make sure it's lossless you will see some are certified by him.
Yes you are right about Telluride that was an exception,Simon said it looked lossy but since he wasn't absolutely sure and this was a special show/member he didn't pull it.
Maybe this helps http://crows-town.com/index.php?topic=197.0

Offline cmstewart21

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2017, 12:49:39 AM »
Yeah, this is something I've only recently begun to realize. I think my ears have gradually become more fine tuned to the difference between a lossless/lossy recording. Some of my recordings, I could tell something wasn't exactly right. They just didn't have the depth.


I'm not naturally a jerk or anything, so I don't like getting mad at people who gave me a Flac show, which turned out to be lossy. They may not have even known. How do you guys navigate that when trading and downloading shows, especially ones that are hard to come by?
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Offline cmigs

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2017, 03:22:20 AM »
Upsampled = lossy bumped up to FLAC. For example, if I record a lossy web stream in MP3 and FLAC it, it would be upsampled - the file has been made bigger but no more information is in there. A lot of times this happens because, as Dutchie describes, someone's trying to maintain the highest quality possible (particularly when recording a stream).

Offline cmstewart21

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2017, 04:24:21 AM »
Yeah that makes sense. What's baffled me are the shows I've found to be Upsampled. The Newport '00 show has been one of my favorites. Now I've gotten it from 2 sources on crows-town in recent years... both are apparently lossy. So I wasn't sure if the application checking them was accurate, or if I really have more upsampled shows than I think. And I definitely wanna be sure I don't want to trade those (without at least informing the other party that it's lossy).
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Offline dutchieblue

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2017, 04:09:30 PM »
Newport has a lossy and a lossless version the one Graham seeded should be lossless.I can't imagine a lossy show was being shared on Dime.
Personally when i listen to a recording i can't hear if it's lossy or not.However if i have a fine lossless recording and i listen to it after it has been turned into MP3 and shared that way several times i can hear the difference and the "damage" that has been done.
Don't get me wrong there are plenty of lossy shows with excellent sound and i'm happy we are able to share those here too as long as there is no lossless version in circulation.
Also these days there are lossy formats that are much better than they used to be,it seems to be what many people prefer these days fast and easy.The big downside for me is that you can never return to the original sound that's why i prefer sharing in lossless format like FLAC.

Offline cmigs

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 04:42:44 AM »
Yeah, the obsession with something being lossy comes from days where people were ripping lossless shows to MP3 (probably 128kbps) and then burning them to share (which is another example of upsampling). That's not really happening now.

Offline cmstewart21

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 05:14:06 AM »
Well, in 2008 when I started getting bootlegs, I was ignorant of what lossless even meant. But my ears now seem to be able to tell the difference. At least with studio stuff, it's noticeable to me. Perhaps I'm late to that party. But since CC's my favorite band, if a lossless copy exists and mine's lossy, I get that unsatisfied feeling.
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Offline cmstewart21

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2017, 04:45:06 AM »
This may be a dumb question, but I've never used SHN files before. How do those differ from Flac, and what's the upsides/downsides to them?
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Offline dutchieblue

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2017, 04:51:36 PM »
In the past they used SHN,APE,FLAC they are all lossless and i don't think there are significant upsides /downsides to them.
Now it's mostly FLAC i don't think SHN is used much anymore.

Offline kamio

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2017, 05:27:14 PM »
I was reading up about this and SHN (shorten) is a codec that isn't developed/supported any more.  fortunatly ffmpeg will convert SHN and APE to FLAC, supposedly effortless.

Offline cmigs

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2017, 08:42:53 PM »
Yeah, they just fell out of favor. Like a VHS/Beta thing... FLAC just won out. No real difference.

Offline cmstewart21

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2017, 01:26:25 AM »
Gotcha. Thanks guys for enlightening me. That helps a lot.
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Offline cmigs

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2017, 10:54:24 PM »
By the way, if you're up for a long read, I just found this old thread discussing lossless v. lossy recordings from 10 years ago. This gives a bit more of the history I touched on above. http://crows-town.com/index.php?topic=1672.0

Offline cmstewart21

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Re: Lossless Audio Checker - Lossless questions
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2017, 08:49:19 AM »
By the way, if you're up for a long read, I just found this old thread discussing lossless v. lossy recordings from 10 years ago. This gives a bit more of the history I touched on above. http://crows-town.com/index.php?topic=1672.0

Thanks for this. I read thru it the last couple nights. The one thing that has gripped me about lossless is that I really think I can tell a slight difference in it (even though 'science' says the human ears can't). My ears can be really sensitive from being a guitarist. I can tell between varying tonewoods and tubes, etc. So my ears can be picky.

But after reading that thread I don't know if I'm just being a passionate CC fan, delusional, or a snob.
I could break like a bird and I could swallow the sea.